posted 01-02-2001 03:23 PM            

The guy claims to be idealistically open-minded on all issues, when in fact he's a coward. Relativists believe that merely having chameleon-like qualities satisfies their opinions as being valuable because they seem to agree with those points until it suits them to change their colors again.

Ecumenicalism is a myth. You stand for everything and anything as your emotional needs see fit, and when that fails, you pretend you're just a simple idealist.

posted 01-02-2001 03:29 PM            

All you're revealing now is that you won't read my posts carefully and that you carry around with you a myopic and tyrannical model that was designed to describe a little part of the world, yet which you try to distend into an all-embracing model for the entire universe and it's experience.

And again, relativism unflagingly champions the right of individuals to formulate their own views on issues that relate to them. There is no change there. There is recognition of each individual's autonomy and each model's autonomy as established by the experience it is rooted in.

(Like the way my metaphor of unflagging trumps yours on wind?)

posted 01-02-2001 03:43 PM            

Up to a challenge?

posted 01-02-2001 04:16 PM            

What you are doing is associating perceived cause/effect relationships as direct interactions, when there is no proof otherwise--- just your perception that tries to link the two. You can't see this from where you are if you are constantly trying to make spiritual connections between things. Your mind is on over-drive looking for perceived connections between all things.

These connections are solely perception-based. That's the good reason why I dismiss them. You wouldn't know this because you desperately want to believe it."

You really don't know what you are talking about! It is obvious that you never studied this subject. You just don't want to believe it, so will just wholesale make a statement THAT DOES NOT ACTUALLY OFFER ANY PROOF WHATSOEVER!!

What about the rancher looking for a lost little boy in a thousand-plus acres forest and finds him (he said he was drawn to the spot) within 30 minutes?

What about all the other people who have had hunches not to board an airplane that crashes? Et cetera!!??

posted 01-02-2001 04:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lansky:
You bitch about people's egoes getting deflated all the time, Roman. Why don't you let people have their spirituality and leave them alone? Friend of mine put the Tao Te Ching into two words: "WHATEVER WORKS." Why do you have to have this Wet Hat Contest going on all the time (as in, my medulla oblongata is longer than yours)? I keep coming back to this thread wanting to talk about certain things that I won't even mention because I don't want them cheapened with a bunch of mix-mastered Positivist faith-healing.

---

Hi, Lansky! I would love to hear what you have to say. I understand why you feel the way you do, as what's his name keeps trying to put me down. I have such a strong sense of God and myself that I don't let it bother me too much, but I know what you mean.

posted 01-02-2001 04:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by roman74:
Ideas aren't as phenomenal, as some like to believe.

---

You really are short a six-pack (maybe a whole case! No, maybe a truck-load!). Look under the dictionary. Spirituality is there. It is accepted in courts, our money says, "In God (not Roman) we trust", you idiot!

Prove I am wrong, I dare you, bean brain!

posted 01-02-2001 04:30 PM            

Yet again, this big huge as..h... (you get the idea) is trying to stop us from talking about this subject.

posted 01-02-2001 04:38 PM            

After my direct experience of God, the Samadhi state, I had a hole in my chest at the heart chakra about the size of a quarter. It was a perfectly round indentation about an eighth of an inch deep. I had this hole for a few years. It was usually whiter than the rest of my chest, and felt like a vacuum cleaner hose was being held up there from inside.

I had been studying several different books - one on the origin of language from hieroglyphs by RA Schwaller, an astrology book, a numerology book, GI Gurdjieff, I forget the others. Somewhere between these different schools of belief, I suddenly contemplated that maybe the 7 chakra system only reflects Man's current development - since in many mystical schools 7 is the number that represents Man's personal consciousness, and many occult systems use the number 7 as the end of a cycle. I remember thinking maybe there's a universal chakra system based on 10, and maybe 7 is just a guidepost for our species... different stuff was going through my mind, anyway, just stuff....

well...

as soon as I started thinking this, the hole in my chest started really turning white, and I noticed there was another hole the exact same size and depth at the bottom of my rib cage about 4 inches down my chest. I thought that was weird, I hadn't noticed that hole before. It's like another chakra. And then I noticed a similar hole 4 inches up from the first, same size, same depth. I could run my finger along the ridge - they looked completely similar, completely perfect holes. More appeared on my body. 4 inches to the right of the first, and to the left. 4 inches to the right of the second. I thought to myself, it looks like a perfect grid of chakras. And instantly, a huge hole indentation appeared where four of the smaller holes had formed a square. This hole was about 4" by 4" and again it was a perfect circle that I could run by finger along the ridge and inside the curve of the indentation which was about half an inch deep. Another hole this size appeared in the grid of the previous smaller holes. And again I thought that it was a grid, that there were chakra points everywhere and my body was kind of moving along them. Instantly again, four of the larger holes suddenly formed a humungous hole that took up the size of my entire belly, which I do not know how, but my belly somehow formed itself into an 8" by 8" hole - perfectly round and indented like a bowl, about 2 inches deep. I had time to pinch myself. I had time to physically feel the hole in my body. It was real. It was definitely not a hallucination.

The big hole kinda disturbed me, and I went into the bathroom to look in the mirror. I can't describe what happened next, but it was very disturbing, and I had to close my eyes and meditate on love before everything became 'normal' again.

posted 01-02-2001 06:04 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyTerror:

I suddenly contemplated that maybe the 7 chakra system only reflects Man's current development - since in many mystical schools 7 is the number that represents Man's personal consciousness, and many occult systems use the number 7 as the end of a cycle. I remember thinking maybe there's a universal chakra system based on 10, and maybe 7 is just a guidepost for our species... different stuff was going through my mind, anyway, just stuff....

---

Interesting interpretation. I think you should develope it orresearch it more. Evolution is a theory that appeared long before Darwin and is buried in a lot of esoteric wisdoms. Reincarnation is one I can think of. And Zen notions of satari enlightenment. I wouldn't be surprised if Kundalini yoga or Tantric Systems don't have it at least implicit within. I never really studied those systems in any depth, but what I have seen seems so organic to me. Like an unfolding flower. And really, what is more organic than evolution? A continual unfolding.

posted 01-02-2001 08:13 PM            

Tommy, perhaps the "holes" you spoke of were blocks in your "chi," as opposed to additional chakras. I would assume that is why meditation helped to alleviate your problem.

posted 01-02-2001 09:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by AsRiaL:
Boy Oh Boy Roman! If these were the old days I'd be scared you were in for a stoning! Your courage amazes me! I think I'll run my agnostic ass out the back door.

---

posted 01-02-2001 09:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by francescoassisi:
Nah! roman's true punishment is for him to be forgiven.

---

I hate to think of Roman in his down-time.

posted 01-03-2001 03:24 PM            

Shirley McClaine's book:

"Out on a Limb"

Discusses Astral Projection in such detail that it looks like fun. I am missing out, I still am not able to do it.

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyTerror:
i don't project myself on wimp either.

i've always thought that if i ever found myself astral projecting i'd go rummaging through abandoned buildings and backyards and oceanside caves looking for treasure. so if i'm ever in waking up from a coma, have pen and paper ready cuz i'm gonna need to write down those addresses quickly.

---

posted 01-04-2001 04:42 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyTerror:
Now, in my studies of the occult, of course I've come across the theory that there are 7 chakras.

After my direct experience of God, the Samadhi state, I had a hole in my chest at the heart chakra about the size of a quarter. It was a perfectly round indentation about an eighth of an inch deep. I had this hole for a few years. It was usually whiter than the rest of my chest, and felt like a vacuum cleaner hose was being held up there from inside.

I had been studying several different books - one on the origin of language from hieroglyphs by RA Schwaller, an astrology book, a numerology book, GI Gurdjieff, I forget the others. Somewhere between these different schools of belief, I suddenly contemplated that maybe the 7 chakra system only reflects Man's current development - since in many mystical schools 7 is the number that represents Man's personal consciousness, and many occult systems use the number 7 as the end of a cycle. I remember thinking maybe there's a universal chakra system based on 10, and maybe 7 is just a guidepost for our species... different stuff was going through my mind, anyway, just stuff....

well...

as soon as I started thinking this, the hole in my chest started really turning white, and I noticed there was another hole the exact same size and depth at the bottom of my rib cage about 4 inches down my chest. I thought that was weird, I hadn't noticed that hole before. It's like another chakra. And then I noticed a similar hole 4 inches up from the first, same size, same depth. I could run my finger along the ridge - they looked completely similar, completely perfect holes. More appeared on my body. 4 inches to the right of the first, and to the left. 4 inches to the right of the second. I thought to myself, it looks like a perfect grid of chakras. And instantly, a huge hole indentation appeared where four of the smaller holes had formed a square. This hole was about 4" by 4" and again it was a perfect circle that I could run by finger along the ridge and inside the curve of the indentation which was about half an inch deep. Another hole this size appeared in the grid of the previous smaller holes. And again I thought that it was a grid, that there were chakra points everywhere and my body was kind of moving along them. Instantly again, four of the larger holes suddenly formed a humungous hole that took up the size of my entire belly, which I do not know how, but my belly somehow formed itself into an 8" by 8" hole - perfectly round and indented like a bowl, about 2 inches deep. I had time to pinch myself. I had time to physically feel the hole in my body. It was real. It was definitely not a hallucination.

The big hole kinda disturbed me, and I went into the bathroom to look in the mirror. I can't describe what happened next, but it was very disturbing, and I had to close my eyes and meditate on love before everything became 'normal' again.

Of course, this experience affected my beliefs in a certain way. But I'll post my theory of God in that thread later on.

---

Tommy - This seems like it must have been a scary, yet exciting experience for you. I know about the (I think they say there are 12, some called 'subtle') chakras, but I have not really delved very deeply into them. Thanks for sharing!

posted 01-04-2001 01:49 PM            

I like your definition. Shirley McClain did it from Machu Picchu, Peru. She describes it in great detail, much to the dismay of many in the scientific community.

I enjoyed her book.

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enigmagirl:
Astrial projection is the closest any individual could ever get to omnipresence. Through it, one can tap into any given spot in the universe as well as manipulate the energy of any individual being from any distance. It all comes down to the quantum basic: all is now, all is here; any tangeant is possible.

---

posted 01-04-2001 04:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enigmagirl:
Frances, Tommy and Psi: you all have been posting great arguements and seem to have very open-minded understandings of the "nature of things."

Tommy, perhaps the "holes" you spoke of were blocks in your "chi," as opposed to additional chakras. I would assume that is why meditation helped to alleviate your problem.

I'm sure there will be a great majority who will doubt this, but I've "meditated away" complications from broken bones; whenever my boyfriend gets a headache he asks me to "suck them out" of his head for him, using "pranic" manipulation. I've literally seen gangrene heal overnight (a medical "impossibility") simply by the power of belief. People can say whatever they want about the nature of science, the nature of "God," but I've seen the two work as one -- and both are enigmas that will continue to change in definition as long as the human race exists. I believe the simple truth we've all been missing is that they are symbiotic; they exist as a single unit, as we all do when looked at from the "big picture."

---

Enigmagirl - thanks. Fascinating healings! How do you go about your healing meditations?

posted 01-04-2001 04:45 PM            

Hi. I've heard a story about being outside the body and the fear of not returning before. But I haven't heard about an experience about projecting into someone else like that. I believe you!

posted 01-04-2001 04:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by blobello:
What is astral projection? And does it hurt?

---

posted 01-04-2001 05:17 PM            

Also I vaguely remember going out of body as a child. I was petrified of monsters and the only way I could escape them at night is if I felt myself snapping out of my body. I still remember the sensation really well, and having read about astral projection it was the exact same kind of snap. But I would black out as soon as I slipped out so I sure as hell dunno.

But my friend often talked about experiencing walk-ins coming through her and seeing the world through her eyes. We lost touch for many years, and I got this strange call from her in Paris. She was moving to Hong Kong the next day and she was freaked out. She claimed she'd started astral projecting a lot, and she'd think of someone's name and then she'd be hovering over them. Coincidentally, altho I hadn't heard hide nor hair of her in over 5 years, an hour before she called that day I thought I felt her presence in my living room and I knew she was going to be calling. So anyway, she thinks of a friend's name, and there she is. Only she got mixed up somewhere, and ended up at this teacher's classroom - he had the same name as one of her childhood friends. It was at a big university and he was giving a lecture. As usual she hovered around him, and her favorite trick was to walk in to someone's body and see through their eyes. While she was doing this, he suddenly interrupted the lecture saying he had a headache, gave some homework, and retired to an adjacent room. She followed him, and the minute he was alone he started talking to her. He asked her name, and who she was, and what she was doing. She got alarmed, and instantly found herself back in her Paris apartment. Suddenly she became aware that he had followed her out of his body, and he was now looking around her apartment, at photographs and the like, altho he refrained from walking in to her body. He apparently psychically communicated his telephone number, he was a professor of Parapsychology at a very reputable school, and left. She called the number, got his machine, and left a message. And then she called me, utterly freaked out.

I calmed her down as best I could, ironically she was very much a materialist and honestly thought she was going crazy. She probably never took her psychic experiences and ramblings very seriously. She gave me her Hong Kong number, and we agreed to wait and see what happened.

Her phone number was never activated, and I moved out of New York shortly thereafter. I never did hear what happened to her.

posted 01-04-2001 05:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by AsRiaL:
Boy Oh Boy Roman! If these were the old days I'd be scared you were in for a stoning! Your courage amazes me! I think I'll run my agnostic ass out the back door.

---

posted 01-04-2001 06:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by roman74:
It's obvious that I hit some nerves here. If you people were so confident in your beliefs, your insecurities wouldn't be so obvious.

---

posted 01-04-2001 07:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyTerror:
Roman, shut the fuck up you obnoxious twat. Your tirades are really getting tiresome. As long as you argue theory this thread is interesting, but you're such a rude fuck I wanna whip your little nasty snide face until you start begging God for mercy, you dumb bitch. You can have all the smarts in the world, but to abuse them like this you are DUUUMB. You must have a lot of friction in your life. Frances seems a little more informed and reasoned in my book, but there's no doubt that you have studied. But stop putting a spin on everything Frances says please. It's just so fucking annoying. So he's smarter than you, why do you have to lie about him? It in no way makes Frances look bad, you started looking like an asshole to me, and now you are one of the biggest idiots I've ever come across. You're a sore loser. And that can be REDUCED by concensus: You're a loser.

---

Remember, when I posted that the easiest test to see if these ideas were man-made was to start questioning them and then sit back and watch all the people get sensitive about it?

Here's the proof. I rest my case.

Hey, Tommy. I didn't know your God condones "whipping faces" as you suggest! It's fun to watch people like you squirm. You just can't stand to see your hopes and wishful thoughts stomped on and torn down for the illusions they are. *pats you on the head*

posted 01-04-2001 08:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by roman74:
Remember, when I posted that the easiest test to see if these ideas were man-made was to start questioning them and then sit back and watch all the people get sensitive about it?

---

Let's see some scientific proof for your little 'test'. You frothing mass of idiot hypocricy.

posted 01-04-2001 08:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by roman74:
Hey, Tommy. I didn't know your God condones "whipping faces" as you suggest!

---

Yea, well now you know.

posted 01-04-2001 08:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyTerror:
Let's see some scientific proof for your little 'test'. You frothing mass of idiot hypocricy.

---

The proof is right here. You can't go two words without getting sensitive about your made-up beliefs. It's time to get over it, man.

I guess you're so used to making up your own cause/effect scenarios you can't see when one bites you right under your own nose. LOL..

posted 01-04-2001 08:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by roman74:
The proof is right here. You can't go two words without getting sensitive about your made-up beliefs. It's time to get over it, man.

I guess you're so used to making up your own cause/effect scenarios you can't see when one bites you right under your own nose. LOL..

Thanks for the laughs and letting me stomp all over you.

---

Why are you still talking and saying nothing?
Let me get this straight - when you get defensive and emotional and call people names its rational scientific thought, but if anyone else pulls the same stunt it completely invalidates everything they're ever said?

Ugh! It's like arguing with a two year old.

You move on, bud, you're wasting space here and contributing nothing. I think we've all heard enough noise from your butt. You stinky. Meesa chokin.

posted 01-04-2001 08:27 PM            

quote:

---

"Maslow set up a hierarchical theory of needs. The animal or physical needs were placed at the bottom, and the human needs at the top. This hierarchic theory can be seen as a pyramid, with the base occupied be people who are not focused on values, but just staying alive. A person who is
starving dreams about food, thinks about food and nothing else. Each level of the pyramid is some what dependent on the previous level for most people. Maslow Hierarchy of Needs (rephrased) includes seven levels:

1.Physiological Needs. Biological needs such as oxygen, food, water, warmth/coolness, protection from storms and so forth. These needs are the strongest because if deprived, the person could or would die.

2.Safety Needs. Felt by adults during emergencies, periods of disorganization in the social structure (such as widespread rioting). Felt more frequently by children who often display signs of insecurity and their need to be safe."

---

posted 01-04-2001 08:45 PM            

Your quote is similar to Gurdjieff's 7 stages of man concept.

posted 01-04-2001 11:55 PM            

I don't blame her for feeling freaked out when the professor came to her place. He was probably upset that she entered his body. That's a no-no. So, he was probably just trying to protect himself.

Thanks for sharing that story with us!

janet