posted 01-15-2001 03:27 PM            

The consensus of opinion and the evidence collected seem to point to Roman74 and Blobello are the same person.

Blobello = Roman.

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by richbo:
y'know i used to like this post until roman74 came sniffing around...

---

posted 01-16-2001 10:31 AM            

Tell us, we are interested on this thread.

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by richbo:
Thanks for the responce psichick!
to the guy with the white light power-
Hey man, don't quit-! people usually respond negatively with imbibed power-
(i have a few gifts myself that i normally don't use except in extraordinary circumstances-) i could tell you a few stories...

---

posted 01-18-2001 09:15 AM            

Tell us more about the White Light. What power it gives you? How you control it?
Start from zero because I know nothing about it and am willing to learn.

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyTerror:
Hey EnigmaGirl... can you look for buried treasure when you're out of body? I really wanna know....

Once a long time ago I was standing a few people behind this old guy in line at the supermarket, and he was so old and weathered, I filled him with white light, as I often did back then. He immediately reared up and spun around and yelled "Cut that out" at me. It's not like I start waving my arms or anything. You'd never be able to tell I was filling someone with white light. So quickly I mentally cleared the karma between us to be done with it, and again he turns around and yells "I told you to cut that out!". Everyone was staring at me, they thought he was crazy. It was funny. And I've stopped filling people with white light unless they ask for it, or I can't help myself.

---

posted 01-18-2001 09:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Satire:

Hi Tommy:

Tell us more about the White Light. What power it gives you? How you control it?
Start from zero because I know nothing about it and am willing to learn.

Satire.

---

Yes and be sure to tell us how it is able to penetrate your tinfoil hat.

posted 01-18-2001 09:37 AM            

Science Stunned By 16thC Scene Found In Virgin Of Guadalupe's Eyes
January 18, 2001 08:00 CDT

The phenomenon of the mysterious eyes of the image of Virgin of Guadalupe has puzzled science for years. Digital technology, however, is helping researchers gain a greater understanding of the image. The Virgin of Guadalupe, imprinted on the tilma of a 16th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to Catholicism. Recently in Rome, engineer Jose Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies discussed results of research into the image at a conference. For more than 20 years, he has studied the image of the Virgin left on the rough fiber fabric of Juan Diego's tilma. The Virgin's eyes especially intrigued Tonsmann.

Although the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and pupils of the eyes in the image contain a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, said Tonsmann. The same people are shown in both eyes, in different proportions, as would occur when human eyes reflect the objects in front of them. Tonsmann believes the reflection transmitted by the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe is the scene on December 9, 1531, during which Juan Diego showed his tilma, containing the image, to Bishop Juan de Zumarraga and other witnesses in the room.

Tonsmann used a digital process used by space probes and satellites to transmit visual information. He insists that the image "has not been painted by the human hand." As early as the 18th century, scientists showed that painting such an image in a fabric of that texture would be impossible. The "ayate" fibers used by Indians, in fact, deteriorated after 20 years. The image and the fabric it's printed on, however, have lasted almost 470 years. Tonsmann noted that Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, found that the image did not contain natural, animal, or mineral colorings. Since synthetic colorings did not exist in 1531, the image is inexplicable.

In 1979, Philip Callahan and Jody B. Smith studied the image with infrared rays and were stunned to learn that there was not a trace of paint on the fabric and it had not been treated with any kind of technique. "[How] it is possible to explain this image and its consistency in time without colors, on a fabric that has not been treated?" Tonsmann asked. "[How] is it possible that, despite the fact there is no paint, the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance?"

Tonsmann added, "Callahan and Smith showed how the image changes in color slightly according to the angle of viewing, a phenomenon that is known by the word iridescence, a technique that cannot be reproduced with human hands."

Tonsmann started his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin's eyes 2,500 times and, using mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes. The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle, the very moment Juan Diego unrolled his tilma in front of the bishop, Tonsmann said. Tonsmann says it is possible to discern a seated Indian, gazing toward the heavens; the profile of an elderly balding man with a white beard, similar to a portrait of Bishop Zumarraga; and a younger man who was probably interpreter Juan Gonzalez. Another Indian is also present. Tonsmann believes it is likely Juan Diego. Also present is a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave working in the bishop's service, and a man with Spanish features. Tonsmann says the Virgin's eyes show sort of an instant picture of what was happening the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop.

In addition, the center of the pupils shows, on a much more reduced scale, another scene independent of the first. The scene shows an Indian family made up of a woman, a man, and several children. The right eye shows other people standing behind the woman.

posted 01-18-2001 03:40 PM            

We all know you are not willing to learn Ilise.

You are still having trouble with the word God in the Declaration of Independence.

Watch the Inaugeration and see if a new President puts his hand on a Bible when he takes the Oath before GOD and the Supreme Court Justice and the entire population.

You have obviously been practicing omphaloskepsis and are a complete waste of time to those of serious about learning something new on this thread.

You are starting to get like Lolo. Do something useful. Make a contribution to a thread about OBE. On the God thread make a significant contribution, otherwise go back to gazing at your own navel.

It doesn't bother us, but if you do find some lint, pick it out carefully and save it because that's 100% of your contribution so to these threads so far.

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ilise:
Yes and be sure to tell us how it is able to penetrate your tinfoil hat.

---

[This message has been edited by Satire (edited 01-18-2001).]

posted 01-18-2001 05:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chloe25:
I also had a sleep paralysis experience about 8 years ago. I woke up and felt a dark presence in the corner of the room that communicated "I will always be with you." The thing entered through my feet and went up my body paralyzing me as it entered. I remember being strangely calm but terrified. I tried to call out my roommates name and turn my head but I couldn't because I was paralyzed. I think I prayed (it's hard to remember) and then within a few seconds it left. Carl Sagan's book "The Demon Haunted World" discusses the phenomenon of sleep paralysis and he relates a few experiences that are very similar to mine and others on this thread. He is an atheist so he attributes the experience to a state where the mind is asleep but the body wakes up.
I don't know. It seemed pretty real to me. It didn't seem like a dream at all. The presence felt very real and alive.
Another time, I went to this church revival and this preacher put his hand on my forehead and I passed out. I saw a very bright light which turned out to be a track light shining in my eyes. I also felt this absolutely amazing presence of pure love that washed over me in waves. I felt God who was pure love. The experience only lasted maybe 20-30 seconds. There were hundreds of people at this place and they all fell down as well. My husband who is an atheist teetering on the verge of agnostic even fell backwards. Later he attributed the whole thing to mass hysteria. I don't think so. I do believe in the spiritual realm. I just am not sure what I believe exactly.

---

Chloe25 - hi. Interesting experiences. Don't believe Carl Sagan just because he was a scientist. He was, as you say, an atheist. He usually refutes people who say they have been abducted (by alien ETs) with that one, because abductees usually go through a state of being 'frozen' or paralyzed during a significant part of their abduction experience. (This is another area I study as a anomalous phenomena researcher.)

Carl Sagan HAD an open mind when he was a young professor at Cornell, but during his later years became more and more close-minded, and less and less of a scientist.

Your experiences would be weighed very carefully as testimony in a court of law or by the Catholic Church (if it were about a miracle). So, don't be too quick to let people say it was mass hysteria. During a recent event where masses of people gathered together and saw the figure of a woman, bathed in light atop a chruch steeple, there were witnesses who videotaped the event. The videotape didn't show a woman, BUT it DID show an unusual light right where everyone claimed to see the Lady. I DON'T think one can tape mass hysteria-type phenomenon, so...

If you've felt the Love of God, as you say you did, there is nothing else like it. It is the strongest emotion/feeling one can have, in my opinion. Great, huh?

posted 01-18-2001 07:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Satire:

Hi Tommy:

Tell us more about the White Light. What power it gives you? How you control it?
Start from zero because I know nothing about it and am willing to learn.

Satire.

---

Actually filling people with white light is a pretty common psychic exercise used in healing and other psychic practices. The only power it gives me so far is a sense of well-being, also I'm sure it helps develop concentration. I think I first did a white light exercise in an acting class. Yoga classes too. It was just weird that the guy at the supermarket sensed it without evebn looking at me. Usually you start with the feet, filling them with white light that you generate from the center of your being, and work your way up the body to the top of the head. It's a good relaxation visualization.

There's a lot of similar exercises that can be very powerful. I really like Thomas Levine's book "A Gradual Awakening" with some excellent ones, like the dying one is GREAT, and there's one guided visualization on forgiveness, every time I went through it weird coincidences would always take place centering around the person I was focusing on.

posted 01-19-2001 01:23 AM            

I woke up remembering an unsolved mystery type experience from when I was doing my first play in Manhattan with a theater company from Los Angeles. We were all pretty excited, maybe a little stupid. There was 10 in our group, eight of us decided to walk to the theater one night during rehearsals. On the way we ran into this homeless guy who was all over the place - a real showman. He claimed he could move things with his mind, and then did this weird, absurd wave of his hand kinda thing and yelled to this flag on top of a building nearby. Within seconds the flag started flapping in the wind. He said for it to stop and it stopped. We laughed. He did it a couple times, almost impressive but really charming if nothing else. Somehow after 20 minutes he had us all in a huddle chanting on a busy street corner. Like I said, we were kinda excited, kinda stupid. It was a really bizarre experience. I don't even know where the chanting came from. We just got weird. I think we danced even. He did the flag blowing thing yet a few more times, and everyone gave him some money, and I gave him a necklace I had on with a twisted snake. And we left for the theater which was 10 minutes away. We were downtown.

posted 01-19-2001 07:07 AM            

For lack of a better phrase, lighten up. You remind of something Umberto Eco wrote in The Name of the Rose (don't worry, I'll explain to you)..."With laughter there is no fear, and without fear there is no need for God." In simple terms (the kind you require), that means that people who can't have a sense of humor and reflection about themselves require fear and ignorance to keep their little beliefs afloat.

BTW, I truly pity you if you think I have a problem with the word God in the Declaration of Independence or any other damn place, because it means once again you have missed my point and have instead replaced it with one of your puny notions.

Lady I

quote:

---

Originally posted by Satire:
Ilise:

We all know you are not willing to learn Ilise.

You are still having trouble with the word God in the Declaration of Independence.

Watch the Inaugeration and see if a new President puts his hand on a Bible when he takes the Oath before GOD and the Supreme Court Justice and the entire population.

You have obviously been practicing omphaloskepsis and are a complete waste of time to those of serious about learning something new on this thread.

You are starting to get like Lolo. Do something useful. Make a contribution to a thread about OBE. On the God thread make a significant contribution, otherwise go back to gazing at your own navel.

It doesn't bother us, but if you do find some lint, pick it out carefully and save it because that's 100% of your contribution so to these threads so far.

Satire.

[This message has been edited by Satire (edited 01-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Satire (edited 01-18-2001).]

---

posted 01-19-2001 07:17 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by psichick:

Carl Sagan HAD an open mind when he was a young professor at Cornell, but during his later years became more and more close-minded, and less and less of a scientist.

Janet

---

posted 01-19-2001 09:08 AM            

Well, I was talking to God last nite and He said to me "Lady I, why bother with these people; they're obviously simple-minded and they never amount to much anyway."
And I said "I know, but it just bothers me that in this day in age people are walking around telling each other fairy stories and pulling your name out if there ass.

Ilise:

YOUR POINT!

"It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

WRONG!

From the first day of our country our founding fathers on July 4, 1776 used the words GOD and CREATOR in our Declaration of Independence.

To today, when in the Courts of the United States, witnesses take on oath on a Bible concluding with the words "so help me God."

Tomorrow, at the Presidential Inaugeration
Bush will place his hand on a Bible to take his Presidential Oath, on the same Bible as
George Washngton used. Records show that John Adams used a Law Book and all Presidents since records were kept used the Bible. There is no requirement that the Oath end in "so help me God" but most Presidents say it anyway.

ON SENCE OF HUMOR.

It takes an extraordinary sence of humor to continually respond to someone who never admits that they are wrong. To leave such a
ludicrous statement as:

"It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

on the boards uncontested is ridiculous.

Secondly, to accuse you of practicing omphaloskepsis rather than admit your error is quite funny to many of us.

"In God We Trust"

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ilise:
Satire-

For lack of a better phrase, lighten up. You remind of something Umberto Eco wrote in The Name of the Rose (don't worry, I'll explain to you)..."With laughter there is no fear, and without fear there is no need for God." In simple terms (the kind you require), that means that people who can't have a sense of humor and reflection about themselves require fear and ignorance to keep their little beliefs afloat.

BTW, I truly pity you if you think I have a problem with the word God in the Declaration of Independence or any other damn place, because it means once again you have missed my point and have instead replaced it with one of your puny notions.

Lady I

[This message has been edited by ilise (edited 01-19-2001).]

---

posted 01-19-2001 09:23 AM            

Oh, and congratulations on using a great big word -- that calendar is sure paying off fer ya.

Lady I

quote:

---

Originally posted by Satire:
Originally posted by ilise:

Well, I was talking to God last nite and He said to me "Lady I, why bother with these people; they're obviously simple-minded and they never amount to much anyway."
And I said "I know, but it just bothers me that in this day in age people are walking around telling each other fairy stories and pulling your name out if there ass.

Ilise:

YOUR POINT!

"It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

WRONG!

From the first day of our country our founding fathers on July 4, 1776 used the words GOD and CREATOR in our Declaration of Independence.

To today, when in the Courts of the United States, witnesses take on oath on a Bible concluding with the words "so help me God."

Tomorrow, at the Presidential Inaugeration
Bush will place his hand on a Bible to take his Presidential Oath, on the same Bible as
George Washngton used. Records show that John Adams used a Law Book and all Presidents since records were kept used the Bible. There is no requirement that the Oath end in "so help me God" but most Presidents say it anyway.

ON SENCE OF HUMOR.

It takes an extraordinary sence of humor to continually respond to someone who never admits that they are wrong. To leave such a
ludicrous statement as:

"It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

on the boards uncontested is ridiculous.

Secondly, to accuse you of practicing omphaloskepsis rather than admit your error is quite funny to many of us.

"In God We Trust"

Satire.

---

posted 01-19-2001 10:06 AM            

There is nothing to break down, you said what you said, quote!

Originally posted by ilise:

"Well, I was talking to God last nite and He said to me "Lady I, why bother with these people; they're obviously simple-minded and they never amount to much anyway.
And I said "I know, but it just bothers me that in this day in age people are walking around telling each other fairy stories and pulling your name out of there ass.
It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

"your name" = God

"It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

Wrong! It is not contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for.

Your message below is trying to squirm out of your erroroneous statement above.

I have not had an occasion to use the word omphaloskepsis in more that 20 years, but if fits you so well, I could not resist. Ha! Hilarious! I'm crackin up laughing.

Get with it will ya, you blew it. Admit it so we can get on with more serious matters.

My sence of humor will out last your stubbornness.

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ilise:
OK, I'll break it down into little pieces for you again. I did not say belief in God (i.e, a universal higher order as defined by the founding fathers, many of whom were Deists) was contary to our ancestors, I said superstition (belief in angels, spirits, gnomes, leprechauns, etc.) was contrary to, not just the framers of the Constitution and signers of the Dec. of Ind., but to the scientists, philosophers, writes, artists and other iconoclasts who moved your sorry ass out the caves and into the current day. Is that simple enough or would you like a cave painting?

Oh, and congratulations on using a great big word -- that calendar is sure paying off fer ya.

Lady I

[This message has been edited by ilise (edited 01-19-2001).]

---

posted 01-19-2001 10:12 AM            

BTW, it's sense...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Satire:

Ilise"

There is nothing to break down, you said what you said, quote!

Originally posted by ilise:

"Well, I was talking to God last nite and He said to me "Lady I, why bother with these people; they're obviously simple-minded and they never amount to much anyway.
And I said "I know, but it just bothers me that in this day in age people are walking around telling each other fairy stories and pulling your name out of there ass.
It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

"your name" = God

"It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

Wrong! It is not contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for.

Your message below is trying to squirm out of your erroroneous statement above.

I have not had an occasion to use the word omphaloskepsis in more that 20 years, but if fits you so well, I could not resist. Ha! Hilarious! I'm crackin up laughing.

Get with it will ya, you blew it. Admit it so we can get on with more serious matters.

My sence of humor will out last your stubbornness.

Satire.

---

posted 01-19-2001 03:27 PM            

You are still squirming for a way out.

I don't need to look it up!

However, it is more of a sham than a parody, if you ment it tongue in cheek. If it is not genuine why post it on a board ment for a serious discussion?

George W. Bush in his oath this morning did in fact say, "so help me God,"

after the songs "America, America, God shed his Grace on thee" and well as the song
"God Bless America" and the pledge
"one Country under God." So then it is factual that our ancestors fought and died for a country where a majority of its people believe in God. Those alive today that fought in WW1, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam etc. would be quite upset over your statement.

"And I said "I know, but it just bothers me that in this day in age people are walking around telling each other fairy stories and pulling your name out of there ass.
It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

Rather than waste any more time on such an irresponsible statement:

I will let you off the hook in the hope that we both can be more productive with future statements.

Hey Isile, on Omphaloskepsis. I was an IBM Executive and the big boss called a meeting of his staff and said: "Why don't you people get down to work and stop practicing omphaloskepsis."

No one said a word, we all looked guilty. None of us had any idea what this word ment. We raced to the dictionary and found it not listed.
At that time about 20 years ago in the Downtown Library in the unabridged giant dictionary it said:

"Staring at the navel while meditating as practiced by mystics in Africa." Ha! Ha!
We all laughed at ourselves.

Today the word is even in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary with a more humane definition.

But, never say I have no sence of humor.

Satire.

QUOTE]Originally posted by ilise:
OK, now look up the word parody.

BTW, it's sense...

[This message has been edited by ilise (edited 01-19-2001).][/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by Satire (edited 01-20-2001).]

posted 01-19-2001 08:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TommyTerror:
mmmn Isabel, maybe you should go see THE GIFT..? But check out A GRADUAL AWAKENING - its pretty effective if you can get through it. It's almost oppressively simplistic, but I found it very powerful once I bit the bullet.

I woke up remembering an unsolved mystery type experience from when I was doing my first play in Manhattan with a theater company from Los Angeles. We were all pretty excited, maybe a little stupid. There was 10 in our group, eight of us decided to walk to the theater one night during rehearsals. On the way we ran into this homeless guy who was all over the place - a real showman. He claimed he could move things with his mind, and then did this weird, absurd wave of his hand kinda thing and yelled to this flag on top of a building nearby. Within seconds the flag started flapping in the wind. He said for it to stop and it stopped. We laughed. He did it a couple times, almost impressive but really charming if nothing else. Somehow after 20 minutes he had us all in a huddle chanting on a busy street corner. Like I said, we were kinda excited, kinda stupid. It was a really bizarre experience. I don't even know where the chanting came from. We just got weird. I think we danced even. He did the flag blowing thing yet a few more times, and everyone gave him some money, and I gave him a necklace I had on with a twisted snake. And we left for the theater which was 10 minutes away. We were downtown.

5 minutes after we arrived at the theater, the other two from our group entered breathlessly, they'd spent the last half hour uptown around 52nd street with this flamboyant homeless guy who read their fortune - at the same time we had our weird homeless guy experience. They bought a necklace off him. It was definitely the exact same necklace I had given the downtown homeless guy. Unexplainable and pretty weird, huh?

---

posted 01-20-2001 12:50 PM            

I have no answers, but thank you for sharing your experiences.

If more people expressed their experiences
like you have we could build a data base so large that eventually there nigh be an explaination right before our eyes.

Thanks Chloe,

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chloe25:
I also had a sleep paralysis experience about 8 years ago. I woke up and felt a dark presence in the corner of the room that communicated "I will always be with you." The thing entered through my feet and went up my body paralyzing me as it entered. I remember being strangely calm but terrified. I tried to call out my roommates name and turn my head but I couldn't because I was paralyzed. I think I prayed (it's hard to remember) and then within a few seconds it left. Carl Sagan's book "The Demon Haunted World" discusses the phenomenon of sleep paralysis and he relates a few experiences that are very similar to mine and others on this thread. He is an atheist so he attributes the experience to a state where the mind is asleep but the body wakes up.
I don't know. It seemed pretty real to me. It didn't seem like a dream at all. The presence felt very real and alive.
Another time, I went to this church revival and this preacher put his hand on my forehead and I passed out. I saw a very bright light which turned out to be a track light shining in my eyes. I also felt this absolutely amazing presence of pure love that washed over me in waves. I felt God who was pure love. The experience only lasted maybe 20-30 seconds. There were hundreds of people at this place and they all fell down as well. My husband who is an atheist teetering on the verge of agnostic even fell backwards. Later he attributed the whole thing to mass hysteria. I don't think so. I do believe in the spiritual realm. I just am not sure what I believe exactly.

---

posted 01-20-2001 02:16 PM            

Yeah!

Thanx,

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Isabel:
Satire: I thank them also, to much ideas, huh!?

---

posted 01-20-2001 06:05 PM            

Facinating!

Thanks for sharing this story.

Any update on Lourdes and Fatima?

Thanx,

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by psichick:
Hi everyone. I was reading my daily internet articles and found one that truly gives one pause for thought (and maybe more research). There is a picture of the cloth at www.cosmiverse.com (one of my favorite sites).

Science Stunned By 16thC Scene Found In Virgin Of Guadalupe's Eyes
January 18, 2001 08:00 CDT

The phenomenon of the mysterious eyes of the image of Virgin of Guadalupe has puzzled science for years. Digital technology, however, is helping researchers gain a greater understanding of the image. The Virgin of Guadalupe, imprinted on the tilma of a 16th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to Catholicism. Recently in Rome, engineer Jose Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies discussed results of research into the image at a conference. For more than 20 years, he has studied the image of the Virgin left on the rough fiber fabric of Juan Diego's tilma. The Virgin's eyes especially intrigued Tonsmann.

Although the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and pupils of the eyes in the image contain a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, said Tonsmann. The same people are shown in both eyes, in different proportions, as would occur when human eyes reflect the objects in front of them. Tonsmann believes the reflection transmitted by the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe is the scene on December 9, 1531, during which Juan Diego showed his tilma, containing the image, to Bishop Juan de Zumarraga and other witnesses in the room.

Tonsmann used a digital process used by space probes and satellites to transmit visual information. He insists that the image "has not been painted by the human hand." As early as the 18th century, scientists showed that painting such an image in a fabric of that texture would be impossible. The "ayate" fibers used by Indians, in fact, deteriorated after 20 years. The image and the fabric it's printed on, however, have lasted almost 470 years. Tonsmann noted that Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, found that the image did not contain natural, animal, or mineral colorings. Since synthetic colorings did not exist in 1531, the image is inexplicable.

In 1979, Philip Callahan and Jody B. Smith studied the image with infrared rays and were stunned to learn that there was not a trace of paint on the fabric and it had not been treated with any kind of technique. "[How] it is possible to explain this image and its consistency in time without colors, on a fabric that has not been treated?" Tonsmann asked. "[How] is it possible that, despite the fact there is no paint, the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance?"

Tonsmann added, "Callahan and Smith showed how the image changes in color slightly according to the angle of viewing, a phenomenon that is known by the word iridescence, a technique that cannot be reproduced with human hands."

Tonsmann started his study in 1979. He magnified the iris of the Virgin's eyes 2,500 times and, using mathematical and optical procedures, was able to identify all the people imprinted in the eyes. The eyes reflect the witnesses of the Guadalupan miracle, the very moment Juan Diego unrolled his tilma in front of the bishop, Tonsmann said. Tonsmann says it is possible to discern a seated Indian, gazing toward the heavens; the profile of an elderly balding man with a white beard, similar to a portrait of Bishop Zumarraga; and a younger man who was probably interpreter Juan Gonzalez. Another Indian is also present. Tonsmann believes it is likely Juan Diego. Also present is a woman of dark complexion, possibly a Negro slave working in the bishop's service, and a man with Spanish features. Tonsmann says the Virgin's eyes show sort of an instant picture of what was happening the moment the image was unveiled in front of the bishop.

In addition, the center of the pupils shows, on a much more reduced scale, another scene independent of the first. The scene shows an Indian family made up of a woman, a man, and several children. The right eye shows other people standing behind the woman.

Tonsmann ventured to guess why he believes the Virgin's eyes have a "hidden" message for today, when technology allows science to discover it. "This could be the case of the picture of the family in the center of the Virgin's eye," he said, "at a time when the family is under serious attack in our modern world."

---

posted 01-21-2001 10:13 AM            

There is a ring of truth to that skeptical stance, in my opinion. But nobody really knows except for two people and they are not talking!

posted 01-21-2001 11:55 AM            

I could be dead wrong on this one, but I recall from some writing somewhere that the last prediction was so horrible that the populace is not ready to hear it.

I agree a puff of smoke, doesn't sound too horrible.

With all the trouble in Jeruselum today and the varous Religions claiming rights to The Temple and Revelation discussing the rebuilding of the Temple, I would expect the last prediction has something to do with a major confrontentation over this issue.

Only a guess.

Think of this. The Rapture if true, could be an Out of Body Experience for the multitudes.

Satire.

quote:

---

Originally posted by psichick:
Well, there are a 'ton' of people who say that the recent press release the Vatican gave out about the never-released last prediction given to the three children (that the present day Pope would be elected with the customary puff of white smoke) couldn't be it, or else why wouldn't they have come out with it years ago.

There is a ring of truth to that skeptical stance, in my opinion. But nobody really knows except for two people and they are not talking!

Janet

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posted 01-22-2001 07:21 AM            

You are truly worthy of your great ancestors: Torquemada, Cotton Mather, George W. Bush, and William Jennings Bryant. You carry the mantle of their genius and keep the flame of their hopes alive. Hear, hear!

God Save the Queen,
Lady I

quote:

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Originally posted by Satire:
Ilise:

You are still squirming for a way out.

I don't need to look it up!

However, it is more of a sham than a parody, if you ment it tongue in cheek. If it is not genuine why post it on a board ment for a serious discussion?

George W. Bush in his oath this morning did in fact say, "so help me God,"

after the songs "America, America, God shed his Grace on thee" and well as the song
"God Bless America" and the pledge
"one Country under God." So then it is factual that our ancestors fought and died for a country where a majority of its people believe in God. Those alive today that fought in WW1, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam etc. would be quite upset over your statement.

"And I said "I know, but it just bothers me that in this day in age people are walking around telling each other fairy stories and pulling your name out of there ass.
It runs so damn contrary to all progress our ancestors fought so hard for..."

Rather than waste any more time on such an irresponsible statement:

I will let you off the hook in the hope that we both can be more productive with future statements.

Hey Isile, on Omphaloskepsis. I was an IBM Executive and the big boss called a meeting of his staff and said: "Why don't you people get down to work and stop practicing omphaloskepsis."

No one said a word, we all looked guilty. None of us had any idea what this word ment. We raced to the dictionary and found it not listed.
At that time about 20 years ago in the Downtown Library in the unabridged giant dictionary it said:

"Staring at the navel while meditating as practiced by mystics in Africa." Ha! Ha!
We all laughed at ourselves.

Today the word is even in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary with a more humane definition.

But, never say I have no sence of humor.

Satire.

QUOTE]Originally posted by ilise:
[b]OK, now look up the word parody.

BTW, it's sense...

[This message has been edited by ilise (edited 01-19-2001).]

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[This message has been edited by Satire (edited 01-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Satire (edited 01-20-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]

posted 01-22-2001 09:19 AM            

And you call yourself a LADY?

LOL, Ha! Ha! Ha!

Satire.

quote:

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Originally posted by ilise:
Well, I admit it: I was wrong. I was wrong to think that I could open your little neaderthal brain the tiniest crack, I was wrong to think that people who believe in angels would have any interest in elnightement of the intellectual kind, I was wrong to believe that you would understand either erudite arguments or humor. I admit it, I was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG and you taught me that. I have seen the error of my ways. I shall no longer waste any time explaining and re-explaining my reasoning; instead I shall simply laugh at you and your purple mountains majesty from a distance.

You are truly worthy of your great ancestors: Torquemada, Cotton Mather, George W. Bush, and William Jennings Bryant. You carry the mantle of their genius and keep the flame of their hopes alive. Hear, hear!

God Save the Queen,
Lady I

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posted 01-22-2001 11:19 AM            

To quote you:

"God Save the Queen,
Lady I"

You are aware of course that when Florida could not count the votes properly it violated our Declaration of Independence from England and our country would then revert back to the Queen.

The Queen's first Order.

The Colonies shall play football like the rest of the world.

The Super Bowl is canceled and will be replaced by the World Cup.

There were Ten Orders of the Queen but this one is significant because of the TV rights.

posted 01-23-2001 02:44 PM            

Thanks for starting the Organized Religion Thread.

I will refer the zealots from this and the God thread to your new thread in the hopes that they can argue their religous beliefs out without addressing the questions of "Is there a God" or have you had an OBE.

Thanx,

Satire.

Satire.

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Originally posted by Isabel:
Satire: I thank them also, to much ideas, huh!?

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posted 01-25-2001 01:52 PM            

I agree your statement of casting the pearls, however, there are quite a few on this thread wlling to consider the other persons point of view and sharing their OBE experiences.

So we tolerate those few who disagree thinking it could change our past experience.

Satire.

quote:

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Originally posted by jcole:
To ROMAN74 and the rest of the gang These spiritual discussions should rise above individual pettyness Roman not all of us care or are concerned about being productive members of a society. The price is too high in the larger picture. Too you others don't bother casting your pearls among the swine. Enjoy your experiences they are real for you. Remember Those who know can't explain, those who don't know can't understand. We truly only have the answers for ourselves.

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posted 01-25-2001 02:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ilise:
Is that simple enough or would you like a cave painting?

Oh, and congratulations on using a great big word -- that calendar is sure paying off fer ya.

Lady I

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Lady,

Thanks for the laughs. Yet however funny that is, it's doubtful psichick would benefit even from a cave painting.

All this time she's been asking billhays to have an open mind to her beliefs, up until he shows her how an open mind could lend to reason more likely conclusions of the make-believe qualities of her beliefs... Then she tells him he's being close-minded and won't listen to her.

posted 01-25-2001 02:07 PM            

You can't even keep track of what you saw.

Suuwhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeee...

quote:

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Originally posted by Satire:

Hi jcole:

I agree your statement of casting the pearls, however, there are quite a few on this thread wlling to consider the other persons point of view and sharing their OBE experiences.

So we tolerate those few who disagree thinking it could change our past experience.

Satire.

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posted 01-25-2001 02:08 PM            

For your information, the framers of our Constitution, the founders of this country, and those who inscribed the words onto our currency were all DEISTS, as opposed to being Theists.

This means that when they refer to the word God they use it in the context of the majesty of and wonders in nature itself. Deists do not believe in the supernatural and nor do they believe in a personal God. Deism is, therefore, also a form of Atheism, a non-belief in the supernatural and/or supreme beings.

If you bothered to do the research you would see how all of your points about the word God fall short of reliable criteria.

posted 01-25-2001 02:11 PM            

quote:

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Roman not all of us care or are concerned about being productive members of a society. The price is too high in the larger picture

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posted 01-25-2001 02:11 PM            

Lady I

quote:

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Originally posted by roman74:
Satire,

For your information, the framers of our Constitution, the founders of this country, and those who inscribed the words onto our currency were all DEISTS, as opposed to being Theists.

This means that when they refer to the word God they use it in the context of the majesty of and wonders in nature itself. Deists do not believe in the supernatural and nor do they believe in a personal God. Deism is, therefore, also a form of Atheism, a non-belief in the supernatural and/or supreme beings.

If you bothered to do the research you would see how all of your points about the word God fall short of reliable criteria.

Yes, I'm here to correct you as many times as you make mistakes. Be more careful next time and I won't have to embarass you on this thread as well.

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posted 01-25-2001 02:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by roman74:
Satire,

For your information, the framers of our Constitution, the founders of this country, and those who inscribed the words onto our currency were all DEISTS, as opposed to being Theists.

This means that when they refer to the word God they use it in the context of the majesty of and wonders in nature itself. Deists do not believe in the supernatural and nor do they believe in a personal God. Deism is, therefore, also a form of Atheism, a non-belief in the supernatural and/or supreme beings.

If you bothered to do the research you would see how all of your points about the word God fall short of reliable criteria.

Yes, I'm here to correct you as many times as you make mistakes. Be more careful next time and I won't have to embarass you on this thread as well.

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posted 01-25-2001 03:17 PM            

Obviously I have researched my own position.
You are so wrong that I have reprinted it below for all to see.

I am a Diest myself so I am obviously aware that the Framers of our Country were Diests.
Thus my overwhelming defense to Ilise our Declaration of Independence.

My Diesm, per se comes from Ethan Allen's Book "The Oracle of Man written in the 1770s,
and while not specifically believing each point of a dictionary definition, I would still be referred to as a Diest, having tolerance for everyones Religious belief, while at the same time having a belief that God exists without the need of Religion.

Ilise also claims to be a Deist, however most Deists I would think would not want to be compared to her the same way most Athists would not like to be compared to you for the same reasons.

You are both angry people. You have used the words "stomped on" even more times than Ilise has used the word "pity." Both of you have needs to rise above others and you so unsuccessful at it that you resort to these words.

You both need to feel superior. Thus stomped on and pity. They are only words but they tell us all a lot about you both. You both try to insult those of us who are serious about these threads. We see it only as your frustration on not being able to prove your point. So you act like it is already proven.

Deism is not a form of Atheism.

If you think you are here to correct my mistakes, you are mistaken.

There are Good Atheists and Diests and there are bad ones.

When you talk about God, I will still be here. And for Ilise.

"In God We Trust."

Satire.

quote:

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Originally posted by roman74:
Satire,

For your information, the framers of our Constitution, the founders of this country, and those who inscribed the words onto our currency were all DEISTS, as opposed to being Theists.

This means that when they refer to the word God they use it in the context of the majesty of and wonders in nature itself. Deists do not believe in the supernatural and nor do they believe in a personal God. Deism is, therefore, also a form of Atheism, a non-belief in the supernatural and/or supreme beings.

If you bothered to do the research you would see how all of your points about the word God fall short of reliable criteria.

Yes, I'm here to correct you as many times as you make mistakes. Be more careful next time and I won't have to embarass you on this thread as well.

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