posted 01-02-2001 10:26 PM            

Good luck. My friend is in a similar situation and there is no reasoning with him, so just so you know it goes both ways. The best thing you can do is be there for her, from hearing what her boyfriend says he will never think she is good enough for him, before you know it she'll be getting inplants! It sounds like you are a good friend and that your boyfriend is supportive, I hope she changes her mind. Since my friend started his eating disorder he is moody, and it really has affected his personality. Not to mention he always just looks tired. Considering he is doing this because he thinks it makes him more attractive it really has made him less actractive both physically and mentally. You might let her know about that.

I will keep my fingers crossed for you, sometimes it is hard to be a friend.

posted 01-02-2001 10:34 PM            

"This world is BULLSHIT. Go with yourself."

--Janeane Garofalo, 'Symphony in Apple'

"Self-improvement is masturbation."

posted 01-03-2001 05:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by actsoblonde:

Maybe my boyfriend could talk some sense into her. He's a guy (and a gorgeous one, at that) and since he's so incredibly handsome she MIGHT listen to his opinion over mine

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posted 01-03-2001 05:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Falcon:
Well, there's one big vote for personality being more important than appearance. Read this again the next time you ask yourself if it's what's inside that counts.

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posted 01-03-2001 05:25 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by actsoblonde:

Falcon,
I base guys on their personalities, NOT their looks. I was just writing that part because if a gorgeous guy says she's too skinny, than she might believe him and quit this nonsense. Anyway, you can tell from my other posts that I like him because of his personality and for wanting to help my friend--NOT because he's gorgeous.

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Yes, this wasn't meant to be personal. It was just an answer to your overall question of "why does weight matter..."

I think we've established that the problem is low self-image and self-destructive behavior on the part of your poor friend.

(And I'm sure she has many, many reasons for her insecurities. I'm not blaming her. Nonetheless, she's got to shape up.)

I'm just reinforcing the point that "guys" are not the problem, here. Guys are no better than women... but in reality they are no worse, either.

I truly feel for you and your plight. Your friend is really on a road to nowhere. She's attracted to an abject sewerhole of a human being. She's destroying herself. No doubt, this is a woman with issues.

posted 01-03-2001 05:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Falcon:

Yes, this wasn't meant to be personal. It was just an answer to your overall question of "why does weight matter..."

I think we've established that the problem is low self-image and self-destructive behavior on the part of your poor friend.

(And I'm sure she has many, many reasons for her insecurities. I'm not blaming her. Nonetheless, she's got to shape up.)

I'm just reinforcing the point that "guys" are not the problem, here. Guys are no better than women... but in reality they are no worse, either.

I truly feel for you and your plight. Your friend is really on a road to nowhere. She's attracted to an abject sewerhole of a human being. She's destroying herself. No doubt, this is a woman with issues.

Best of luck, but in the end, you'll find she has to want to save herself. Right now you're probably worrying about this more than she is. What's wrong with this picture.

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posted 01-03-2001 05:54 AM            

1. Right now, you’re probably hurting your case more than helping. Remember that when you tell somebody what to do, the underlying message is, “I’m right, you’re wrong.” Generally, that provokes a reaction to oppose your viewpoint, almost regardless of how good or bad your viewpoint is. So, you’re giving her a REASON to persist in this behavior. You’re giving her a reason on so many levels that it would probably scare you.

For one thing: she’s probably doing this for attention. She’s sufferring so her boyfriend will notice. So, if YOU notice, that’s pretty good, right? Maybe you will tell her boyfriend (you have) and everybody else (like you have) how much she’s sacrificing because she loves Joe Jackass sooooo much. You’re validating her behavior, not discouraging it.

For another thing: you’re embarassing, contradicting, and insulting her. She’s going to stick to her guns. The more you do it, the more she’ll stick.

So, for god’s sake, sometimes you have to just back away and say, “Look, you’re killing yourself, and guess what. Your boyfriend doesn’t care if you do. Nice guy. And I’m tired of caring about your health more than you do. So starve your skinny ass to death. It’s your live to throw away.”

This is a woman with severely disfunctional behavior in a relationship. By opposing her boyfriend, you’re setting yourself up as a way for her to show her boyfriend how much she “loves” him. “See? Everybody hates you but me. That’s how much I love you, honey. I’d turn my back on all of them for you.” She knows he’s a complete waste of oxygen, but right now, something in her screwed up head is telling her that a complete waste of oxygen is exactly what she needs in her life. Nobody will change that wiring around. She could be in therapy once a week for the next 25 years and on her 54th birthday, she’d still have “why do I let a dirty dog of a guy treat me so bad” as the main theme of her counseling session.

It’s like stock opera, and you’re just playing a role, here. You’re hurting, not helping, with your current attempts to “save” her.

2. Sometimes, in cases of severe behavioral problems, people can organize an “intervention”. Basically, gather all the folks who mean something to her in one room. Have them say that they all see a problem. However, if her boyfriend doesn’t participate, then this activity would be meaningless. Even if he does participate, they have a low chance of success, anyway. Sometimes they work, but not often.

3. It’s possible that some antidepressant medication may help her in this case. You never really know. You may ask her if she’s been feeling depressed, then guide her to see a doctor for her depression. Don’t mention the weight loss. The more you mention it, the less she’s going to eat.

As others have pointed out, her weight loss is symptomatic of bigger, more important problems. You could get her to eat a box of twinkies and she’d still be in trouble. Try and coax her to see a psychiatrist (who can prescribe medication) in order to help her deal with her feelings regarding the loss of her parents, possible depression, and sense of inadequacy.

The way you’re going now is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

posted 01-03-2001 06:07 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by cmclippe:
I will go a step further, though, and strongly suggest it's women themselves who are furthering the problem. How many of you are refusing to buy those literally hundreds of fashion magazines that feature impossible figures. THAT'S the problem. It's not PLAYBOY or HUSTLER. It's VOGUE, GLAMOUR and those others that are supporting the super-skinny supermodel ideal.

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Good point, Clippe. Really, women are the ones who are supporting the "ideal woman" as being a supermodel in a size 0.

posted 01-03-2001 07:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by actsoblonde:
I'm gonna try to call her in a little while.

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Aaaaggghhhh!!! Scroll up, scroll up!!! I wish I'd hit my "submit" key faster because I could have told you how that was going to turn out.

posted 01-03-2001 07:40 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Falcon:
Aaaaggghhhh!!! Scroll up, scroll up!!! I wish I'd hit my "submit" key faster because I could have told you how that was going to turn out.

You're coming very close to being an enabler. She's wants this attention and you're feeding it. Be very careful. You've ceased being part of the solution. You're part of the problem, now.

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Yeah, but if I don't keep trying she'll just keep starving herself, anyway. I don't think she's doing it for attention--that's not like my friend. If I quit trying, she'll end up dead or in the emergency room. I don't know what to do now. I've tried. Maybe I could just DRAG her to my car and take her to the hospital. Someone that skinny can't be very heavy.

posted 01-03-2001 07:48 AM            

But starving herself for the attention of a worthless moron is like your friend? You may want to re-think what you know about your friend.

If I quit trying, she'll end up dead or in the emergency room.

If you must keep trying, for god's sake, try a different tack. You can see this one is not working.

I don't know what to do now. I've tried. Maybe I could just DRAG her to my car and take her to the hospital. Someone that skinny can't be very heavy.

Well, first, if she's in a size 2, then nobody's going to look at her and say, "God, she's at death's door!" Plenty of perfectly healthy women fit into those clothes. That's why they make them.

Size 0, 1, 2 and 3 clothes aren't in the "about to die" section of the department store. So, convincing people in an emergency room that she's at death's door is going to be a tough sell. Trust me on this.

My wife is 5'8" and before she got pregnant, she was a size 3. She had very few emergency room physicians accosting her on the street.

Again, what you're doing now is just making things worse. If you must persist, then please do so with a tad of wisdom.

posted 01-03-2001 08:09 AM            

The word "enabler" is important. Look up some literature on alcohol or drug addiction. They all say the same thing. There's literally no way you can help. You either become an "enabler" or a "persecutor". Either way, it only furthers the addiction.

Your friend has to realize the problem herself. Literally, the most helpful thing you can do is remove yourself. That will send the clearest message. Just say, "I'm not going to watch you kill yourself" and follow through. It's tough, as people with these kind of problems are very charismatic and exciting and dramatic and interesting to be around. You become "addicted" to their problem yourself.

posted 01-03-2001 08:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by cmclippe:
On this crisis, I gotta agree with Falcon. It really sounds like the problem isn't eating or not eating. It's a psychological issue much more akin to addiction.

The word "enabler" is important. Look up some literature on alcohol or drug addiction. They all say the same thing. There's literally no way you can help. You either become an "enabler" or a "persecutor". Either way, it only furthers the addiction.

Your friend has to realize the problem herself. Literally, the most helpful thing you can do is remove yourself. That will send the clearest message. Just say, "I'm not going to watch you kill yourself" and follow through. It's tough, as people with these kind of problems are very charismatic and exciting and dramatic and interesting to be around. You become "addicted" to their problem yourself.

I'm willing to bet this problem is affecting your personal life. I bet you're missing work, or at the very least, you're not concentrating on it. You're probably ignoring everyday chores, personal upkeep, etc. In short, you're beginning to act like someone with an addiction. You're obsessing on this subject, and can't let it go.

---

Well, actually I HAVE missed a day of college classes and work. Maybe I DO need to let my friend fend for herself. I'll try it.

posted 01-03-2001 08:17 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by cmclippe:
It's tough, as people with these kind of problems are very charismatic and exciting and dramatic and interesting to be around. You become "addicted" to their problem yourself.

---

Excellent point, Clippe. Bravo.

Being around people like this is exciting. There's a sense of urgency. A sense of being needed. Like you said, you become addicted to their problem.

It sometimes even allows people a welcome distraction from aspects of their own lives that they should probably be examining.

As usual, Clippe, you're a man of wisdom.

And if you must persist in throwing yourself at this person, you may wish to see that you can gain more influence as a friend than as a nag. Right now your tactics are too overt and heavy handed. Even a healthy person would resent your approach.

And... I hate to say it, but maybe her problem isn't such a problem after all. Maybe she has an eating disorder but (and no offense intended), maybe she's just a drama queen. I mean a size 2 does not a Kate Moss make.

If you ask me, I still think she's thriving on the attention right now. She's setting herself up as a martyr.

posted 01-03-2001 08:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Falcon:
Excellent point, Clippe. Bravo.

Being around people like this is exciting. There's a sense of urgency. A sense of being needed. Like you said, you become addicted to their problem.

It sometimes even allows people a welcome distraction from aspects of their own lives that they should probably be examining.

As usual, Clippe, you're a man of wisdom.

And if you must persist in throwing yourself at this person, you may wish to see that you can gain more influence as a friend than as a nag. Right now your tactics are too overt and heavy handed. Even a healthy person would resent your approach.

And... I hate to say it, but maybe her problem isn't such a problem after all. Maybe she has an eating disorder but (and no offense intended), maybe she's just a drama queen. I mean a size 2 does not a Kate Moss make.

If you ask me, I still think she's thriving on the attention right now. She's setting herself up as a martyr.

Of course, this is an internet diagnosis. Based only on what we've heard. However, I hope you won't find me out of line for suggesting that maybe you should talk to somebody about this. Does your college have counselling available to students?

---

Yeah, our college has counseling. But she says she wouldn't ever go to a "shrink" if her life depended on it. She said this before she was ever started starving herself. Plus, why would she listen to a complete stranger over her friends and my boyfriend, who's in college to become a doctor???

posted 01-03-2001 08:38 AM            

Right here--I haven't purchased (or even perused) Cosmo, Vogue, Glamour, etc. in well over 16 years. Not one of my friends read that garbage, either. The advice is atrocious, the writing insulting, and the pictures a mere visual expression of that.

posted 01-03-2001 08:48 AM            

Size 0, 1, 2 and 3 clothes aren't in the "about to die" section of the department store. So, convincing people in an emergency room that she's at death's door is going to be a tough sell. Trust me on this. <<

Actually, I'm going to challenge you on this--some women are at death's door in sizes 0,1,2, etc. I sure as hell am--put me in a size 1, and you're talking serious malnutrition of the vertabrae protruding, menstruation halted, and ribs sticking out variety. A lot depends upon the woman's frame and muscle mass. I'm a stocky girl--the old west pic I posted on the picture thread shows me at 135-140 lbs, size 5s. Knock 25-30 lbs off me, and I'm unhealthy looking--with good reason.

You are, however, absolutely right when you tell Act that getting into her friend's face is going to cement this behavior. I've known many women who decide to starve, but ditch it within a day or two. Starvation is a tough row to hoe--been there. Backing off is likely the best tack to take at this time. Express concern, but don't confront her like this again. Absolutely do not have your boyfriend confront her again. You'll just piss her off and make her determined to prove you wrong.

posted 01-03-2001 09:02 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by actsoblonde:
AAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My boyfriend just proposed to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Congratulations and good luck!

posted 01-03-2001 09:13 AM            

I don't know exactly why, but your good news made me feel very happy.

posted 01-03-2001 09:26 AM            

Marilyn was a size 16, but they changed the size scales in the late sixties so that's the equivalent to a modern 8-10. Zaftig, but not fat.

It seems to me as a film scholar, voluptous babe and colector of vintage clothing that the until the latter half of this century clothing was designed to reflect and enhance the natural shape of women's bodies (guess what Calvin Klein, we have hips and boobs), rather than the other way around. It was less sexist in a way since it realistically dealt with and exalted the actual female form.

It's not since the reign of the corset in the Victorian era that women have been expected to so dramatically modify their bodies to fit clothing (i.e, all the spandex, hip hugger, baby t-shirt, Friends crap floating around). Fashion seems to be inversely proportional to the amount of actual power women wield in society. The more we are on the rise socially, politically, financially, etc, the more we see sexualized children and "waifs" (e.g., Britney Spears et al, Calista Flockhart) placed on a pedestal as the female ideal. Sexist, you bet, and are most of these decisions made by men, yes on that count too...but on the other hand (and this is my major concern about weight and self-image), until we as women start rejecting these notions and start embracing a healthier, more realistic, more diverse idea of beauty we will continue to victimize ourselves.

Modern Day Glamour Girl,
The Lady I

posted 01-03-2001 09:44 AM            

Now, this is my own...i don't like spinage, so I don't eat it.

posted 01-03-2001 10:08 AM            

Congrats! Glad your day is looking up. I agree with Falcon, the best thing you can do is just not try to talk sense in to her, and just let it go. It sounds like the problem is a lot deeper than she thinks, and she should see a counselor about why she is staying with a guy who does not appreciate who she is. You can't force anyone into getting help they have to help themselves.

posted 01-03-2001 10:27 AM            

Point well taken. My only point was that hauling somebody into the ER because they're skinny isn't likely to get George Clooney out there in scrubs. Certainly, you can be starving and unhealthy at any size. Now try to get an ER physician to think you are.

posted 01-03-2001 10:36 AM            

Actually, judging by how this issue is affecting you, and by the way you're handling it, my suggestion was for YOU to talk to somebody.

If you can't change reality, you need to change how you deal with it.

Your friend is an idiot: that's reality.

By wallowing in it with her in the manner you're doing, you're just making an idiot of yourself, too.

You need help, too.

why would she listen to a complete stranger over her friends and my boyfriend, who's in college to become a doctor???

Because that perfect stranger has at least a little education on these matters, and you, your friends and your boyfriend appear to have none. The perfect stranger may be in a position to help.

One of the things your boyfriend will learn once he does become a doctor is that it's very difficult to make an accurate diagnosis when somebody close to you is involved.

His judgement is compromised and the fact that he has no training, whatsoever, in clinical psychology, potentially makes his perspective in this area more harmful than helpful.

Also, a complete stranger means she can discuss these issues without the pride and ego involvement that make it difficult for her to talk about this with close friends.

Is this really a friend of yours?

posted 01-03-2001 11:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Falcon:
Originally posted by actsoblonde:
[b]Yeah, our college has counseling. But she says she wouldn't ever go to a "shrink" if her life depended on it.

Actually, judging by how this issue is affecting you, and by the way you're handling it, my suggestion was for YOU to talk to somebody.

If you can't change reality, you need to change how you deal with it.

Your friend is an idiot: that's reality.

By wallowing in it with her in the manner you're doing, you're just making an idiot of yourself, too.

You need help, too.

why would she listen to a complete stranger over her friends and my boyfriend, who's in college to become a doctor???

Because that perfect stranger has at least a little education on these matters, and you, your friends and your boyfriend appear to have none. The perfect stranger may be in a position to help.

One of the things your boyfriend will learn once he does become a doctor is that it's very difficult to make an accurate diagnosis when somebody close to you is involved.

His judgement is compromised and the fact that he has no training, whatsoever, in clinical psychology, potentially makes his perspective in this area more harmful than helpful.

Also, a complete stranger means she can discuss these issues without the pride and ego involvement that make it difficult for her to talk about this with close friends.

Is this really a friend of yours?

[This message has been edited by Falcon (edited 01-03-2001).][/B]

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