posted 04-18-2001 09:12 AM            

Opinions? Do you care at all?

posted 04-18-2001 09:15 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by CDNFilm:
Spielberg. My apologies... I should have elaborated. Not everyone is obsessed with the man and his life.

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Oh, in that case I commend him. I applaud him!

posted 04-18-2001 09:18 AM            

Unless you think that being homosexual is a race. Then, it would be racist.

Makes for an interesting discussion.

posted 04-18-2001 09:24 AM            

I can't even begin to understand how the BSOA can deny gay people, or gay men, the right to act as a leader (not sure if that's what they're referred to as. I'm a girl and was therefore never in the Boy Scouts), and solely based upon their sexual orientation.

Their discrimination is disgusting and stupid.

posted 04-18-2001 09:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by r_callicotte:
Boy Scouts is an independant organization. Why would a group of homosexuals think that a private organization would have to change everything for them?

Unless you think that being homosexual is a race. Then, it would be racist.

Makes for an interesting discussion.

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The Scouts wouldn't have to change a thing to "let in" gays. They had to actively move to get gays kicked out, and that's horseshit. That's telling gay young men that they're less than human.

posted 04-18-2001 09:32 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by r_callicotte:
Boy Scouts is an independant organization. Why would a group of homosexuals think that a private organization would have to change everything for them?

Unless you think that being homosexual is a race. Then, it would be racist.

Makes for an interesting discussion.

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You pose a good point, but I disagree with the statement that homosexuals expect the private organization to change everything for them. I think it was assumed that with the changing times that they too (BSOA), would jump into the present and open their doors to ALL people.

Also, being a private organization, do they not accept money from private citizens and various other groups? Like a company is obligated to it's shareholders and other financial contributors, the Boy Scout organization is obligated to keep happy those who donate money to their association. I think they made a stupid mistake in discriminating against the gay community, in that many people may not see the issue as they do. I'm sure Steven isn't the only person on their board, or associated with them, for that matter, who is in disagreement with their decision.

-e

posted 04-18-2001 09:44 AM            

We're talking about leadership here. Not equality.

That's why I brought up the RACE issue. If homosexuals are a race, then its an issue. It would be wrong to make such choices base on RACE. But, if homosexuals are making choices about what they do with their sexual desires, and importantly this doesn't represent most of us, then I'd say they could easily lead others to their way of thinking. And since the majority of us aren't homosexual, maybe we don't want our children being led by someone who would help them think differently than what is considered the norm by most of us.

Of course, it is possible that all I'm going to get is hurtful rhetoric and no real reasonable arguments. We'll see.

quote:

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Originally posted by CDNFilm:
You pose a good point, but I disagree with the statement that homosexuals expect the private organization to change everything for them. I think it was assumed that with the changing times that they too (BSOA), would jump into the present and open their doors to ALL people.

Also, being a private organization, do they not accept money from private citizens and various other groups? Like a company is obligated to it's shareholders and other financial contributors, the Boy Scout organization is obligated to keep happy those who donate money to their association. I think they made a stupid mistake in discriminating against the gay community, in that many people may not see the issue as they do. I'm sure Steven isn't the only person on their board, or associated with them, for that matter, who is in disagreement with their decision.

-e

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posted 04-18-2001 09:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by r_callicotte:
Right. I guess there is a concern (not my concern, but maybe it COULD BE my concern) that a homosexual man leading other young men would lead them into his lifestyle.

We're talking about leadership here. Not equality.

That's why I brought up the RACE issue. If homosexuals are a race, then its an issue. It would be wrong to make such choices base on RACE. But, if homosexuals are making choices about what they do with their sexual desires, and importantly this doesn't represent most of us, then I'd say they could easily lead others to their way of thinking. And since the majority of us aren't homosexual, maybe we don't want our children being led by someone who would help them think differently than what is considered the norm by most of us.

Of course, it is possible that all I'm going to get is hurtful rhetoric and no real reasonable arguments. We'll see.

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Is anyone aware that it applies to gay kids as well? If a young man is determined to be gay, then he can't be a scout. If he's already in, then they boot him. That's way wrong.

posted 04-18-2001 10:02 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by r_callicotte:
Right. I guess there is a concern (not my concern, but maybe it COULD BE my concern) that a homosexual man leading other young men would lead them into his lifestyle.

We're talking about leadership here. Not equality.

That's why I brought up the RACE issue. If homosexuals are a race, then its an issue. It would be wrong to make such choices base on RACE. But, if homosexuals are making choices about what they do with their sexual desires, and importantly this doesn't represent most of us, then I'd say they could easily lead others to their way of thinking. And since the majority of us aren't homosexual, maybe we don't want our children being led by someone who would help them think differently than what is considered the norm by most of us.

Of course, it is possible that all I'm going to get is hurtful rhetoric and no real reasonable arguments. We'll see.

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I do understand what you're saying, but must disagree (just because I'm a bitch like that...). To say that gay men in the Scouts might lead young boys towards the same lifestyle that they have chosen for themselves, one which happens to be wrong in the eyes of the board, is proposterous. Infidelity. A man who believes that this act of betrayal in a marriage, is okay, would probably not be denied the right to act as a leader for the young boys who participate in Scouts, but he could just as easily steer these boys down the path to cheating. It's highly unlikely that a gay man would try to convert any of the children he is responsible for, to his way of life. And as mentioned previously, the fact that there are gay boys enrolled in Scouts, can't be overlooked. How does a decision like this make them feel about their already confused outlook on life? Puberty is a bitch as is. A blow like this one only adds fuel to the already raging fire that sums up those years.

posted 04-18-2001 10:02 AM            

If we're talking specifically about a male homosexual leading 95% heterosexual teenagers, then it should be up to the parents in the community what they want to do with the leadership. An outspoken homosexual leader in a group that teaches young men what they should do with their lives could be very confusing to young men in the middle of puberty.

Whether Steven Spielberg likes something or not will not affect what I think about something, unless he is reasonable in his decision process.

Let's all fear Steven Spielberg.

posted 04-18-2001 10:09 AM            

"Although it advertises itself as a fun youth club open to any boy, Boy Scouts of America has a recent history of blatant discrimination against nonreligious boys. The BSA national office mandates a religious litmus test, forcing the parents of boys interested in joining to sign a "Declaration of Religious Principles" which must be returned with membership fees. The membership form states, "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God."

Ironically, British Army officer Lord Baden-Powell founded Boy Scouts as an alternative to the only youth programs then available--programs which were run by churches and which forced boys to accept a certain creed. He wanted Scouting to be open to all boys."

posted 04-18-2001 10:17 AM            

And no, they are not a "race"...

posted 04-18-2001 10:21 AM            

*shakes her head feverishly*

posted 04-18-2001 10:27 AM            

I brought up the RACE issue only because it has been brought up before as an argument for where homosexuality stems from. It isn't a slam.

I like you CDNFilm. Don't hurt CDNFilm.

quote:

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Originally posted by CDNFilm:
I'm confused...who said anything about a race issue...

*shakes her head feverishly*

I feel pain.

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posted 04-18-2001 10:32 AM            

Example is a greater influence than even genetics. Recruiting? I didn't mention recruiting. I'm not even talking about sexual seduction, which is wrong for heterosexual, as well.

I was just noting the importance of example. What a kid sees affects him, especially when he is impressionable.

I've known homosexual men who are as nice and fun to be around as anyone I've met. I'm not homosexual, but I still enjoyed their company.

Interesting, isn't it, how RELIGION sticks its ugly head in to imprison people into modes of destructive thinking. It must rate somewhere under GREED and WAR as being in the ALL-TIME LOSER list.

quote:

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Originally posted by queenie:
Why do people jump to the conclusion that all gay people want to "recruit" everyone else? That's just dumb. If I were a girl scout leader, I certainly wouldn't teach the girls about what sort of sex I like, and I'm quite sure that most gay people wouldn't either. Geez, getcher mind outta the gutter, not everyone thinks about sex all the time.

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posted 04-18-2001 10:38 AM            

They CAN become leaders, lead by example, right?

posted 04-18-2001 10:58 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by r_callicotte:
Boy Scouts is an independant organization. Why would a group of homosexuals think that a private organization would have to change everything for them?

Unless you think that being homosexual is a race. Then, it would be racist.

Makes for an interesting discussion.

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Boy Scouts may be a so-called "private" organization, but they exist to a large degree on public funding and federal recognition by way of having a federal charter.

So when they discriminate, those public funds and the use of public facilities must be withdrawn.

They can go on passing all the homophobic Boy Scout laws that they want to. I don't think anybody has a legal right to stop them from doing that.

But there is also nothing to legally compel local, state, or federal agencies to give aid or support or endorsement to any private organization, especially if that organization does not comply with their guidelines.

By the way, according to the State of California, Girl Scouts is NOT a private organization because:

1. They hold out memberships to the general public at large

2. They run retail stores at every one of their offices that are open to the public at large

3. They do interstate commerce as a public entity

4. They accept public funding and support and succor

And so on...

I sued Girl Scouts, pro per, in Superior Court a few years back and one of the things I was able to legally establish was that Girl Scouts was NOT a private organization.

And I believe that same criteria can be made to hold true for Boy Scouts as well if anyone had ever cared to test it out in court.

PEACE,
uhuru1701

posted 04-18-2001 11:09 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by r_callicotte:
No, no. Don't go that way. This isn't about slinging stones.

I brought up the RACE issue only because it has been brought up before as an argument for where homosexuality stems from. It isn't a slam.

I like you CDNFilm. Don't hurt CDNFilm.

[This message has been edited by r_callicotte (edited 04-18-2001).]

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Okay- I understand - finally (it took me a while, but there it is- I can grasp some things).

It irks me, as well, that this issue has been deemed that of a race one, but I can see how people would associate the two. If the BOA were discriminating against African Americans or Asians, all hell would break lose.

The main point of this whole situation is this- The rights of an individual are being taken away simply because of the way he (in this specific case) has chosen to live his life. It's not right, and to assume that having gay men act in role consumed with leadership will ultimately damage a child in his formative years, is rediculous.

The association advertises that "any boy can join", but then places stipulation after stipulation on that pitch. If the individuals in charge have decided that not all, but only some boys are welcome, changes need to be made to their creedo, as well as, ad campaign.

-e

r-cal- My head no longer hurts. Thank you.

posted 04-18-2001 11:16 AM            

Well, it seems this could go into some very deep and intellectual studies that either need to be made or have been made, so I'm stepping out of the discussion. Not for lack of energy, but of time.

posted 04-18-2001 11:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by r_callicotte:
Thanks, CDN. Your replies means something.

Well, it seems this could go into some very deep and intellectual studies that either need to be made or have been made, so I'm stepping out of the discussion. Not for lack of energy, but of time.

I will say how little I care about the Boy Scouts. Give or take, I didn't join because I liked being independant in my nature learning (lived next door to woods). So, I couldn't stand the idea. Anyway, my mother didn't like the scout master at the time because he hit on her for some free sex and was a married man (I threw potatoes at his house when I found this out - probably better things to do than that I'm sure).

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Potatoes, very nice... I would have gone with severed chicken heads, but...

I appreciate your commentary, as well. It was honest, valid, and intelligent.

Hopefully we'll "chat" again another time, in another thread.

-e

posted 04-18-2001 11:25 AM            

Again sometime.

posted 04-18-2001 11:41 AM            

For those of you concerned about these issues, there is a private organization for kids called the Spiral Scouts. It is literally open to all regardless of who you are, what you look like, what religious path you follow, or who you fall in love with. It has just begun recently, but I have the info if you would like it.